No hard points??

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From: Marvin Kaye <marvkaye [at] olsusa.com>
Subject: No hard points??
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 20:39:59 -0500
To: <lancair.list [at] olsusa.com>

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I couldn't help but notice that the manual recommends that your cut & fit

the fiberfrax to the firewall, attach all the layers with silicone, and

then glue the stainless sheet over the top of them the same way.  I'm

curious about how much that fiberfrax compresses when you torque down the

engine mount attachment bolts... seems to me that the insulation would

compress considerably and allow the stainless sheet to dent inward  under

all that bolt pressure.  The little feet on the mount are only 2" in

diameter, and those [7/16"] bolts will be torqued to about 40ftlbs, seems

like more than enough to squash that insulation big time.  



With that said, wouldn't it make sense to build in some 2" square phenolic

hard points at each engine mount bolt location the same thickness as the

fiberfrax to keep that from happening, or am I worrying about a non-event

again?



   <Marv>

No hard points??

From: Pat Weston <PatW [at] diamondmm.com>
Subject: No hard points??
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 07:58:29 -0800
To: 'lancair.list [at] olsusa.com' <lancair.list [at] olsusa.com>

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Hi Marv,



Thanks to the builder's list I was able to kill time usefully in when in

England two weekends ago. I visited Michael Fopp and drooled all over

his project. I was able to pick up a whole bunch of useful hints. One of

which addresses your concern about the lack of hardpoints to prevent the

fiberfrax from compressing. He cut the holes for the engine mount bolts

oversize in the fiberfrax and placed a washer between the SS and the

prepreg/phenolic mount. He also recommended to drill out the washer to

save weight.



Pat

Pat Weston

VP of Engineering

Diamond Multimedia Systems

Communication Division

360 604 1538

No hard points??

From: by way of Marvin Kaye <marvkaye [at] olsusa.com> <CHRISTOPHER_ZAVATSON [at] udlp.com>
Subject: No hard points??
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 16:59:05 -0500
To: <lancair.list [at] olsusa.com>

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     Marv,

     

     You will "squash that insulation big time" using the approach in the

     manual.  I didn't like the idea and I wanted a perfectly flat SS

     firewall when finished.  The way I accomplished this was to make

     spacers which were inserted in the Fiberfrax every place a bolt passed

     through.  For the six engine mount bolts I stacked up AN970 washers to

     equal the thickness of the Fiberfrax and riveted them together.  For

     all other bolts mounting hardware to the firewall, I machined

     stand-offs from aluminum rod.  The three layers of Fiberfrax were

     glued together and cut to size.  Then I transferred the mounting hole

     patterns and used aluminum tubing to stamp out holes in the Fiberfrax

     to accept all of the stand-offs.  You have to know where all of your

     mounting bolts are going to be located, so I waited to very near the

     end to install my SS and Fiberfrax.  In the mean time I had all of my

     firewall forward items installed on spacers to position them as if the

     Fiberfrax were installed. I didn't glue in the Fiberfrax or the SS.  

     They are merely clamped in place by every bolt passing through them

     and could be removed and modified, if needed.

     In general, it is poor practice to have soft, compliant materials

     being compressed by critical fasteners.  In the firewall case, we also

     have a sheet of plywood being compressed. So, no matter what you do

     with the Fiberfrax, you do not have an ideal joint.  Torque on the

     engine mount bolts should be checked regularly because these compliant

     materials can creep and cause loss of clamp load.  

     You will want to stack at least 2 AN970 washers under the nut

     otherwise the nut will want to pull through when torqued.  AN washers

     are not particularly strong and a single AN970 washer cannot

     sufficiently distribute the load when compressing a plywood core.  

     

     Chris Zavatson

     N91CZ

     

     -----

     Marv,

     You can post the above.  I didn't know how what would happen to the

     attachment.

     Chris

Attachment Converted: "d:\eudora\attach\chris.bmp"



[Thanks for the detailed explanation and the photos... looks great.  I'll

upload the pics to the LML homepage Attachments area later tonight.  <M>]

No hard points??

From: colmar <jones [at] colmar.demon.nl>
Subject: Re:No hard points??
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 09:58:12 +0200
To: marvkaye [at] olsusa.com <marvkaye [at] olsusa.com>, lancair.list [at] olsusa.com <lancair.list [at] olsusa.com>

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No, you are not worrying about a non-problem. There was an item in the Lancair

Newsletter many, many  moons ago which responded, in reply to a similar enquiry,

that "they" at Lancair had managed to torque down the fibrax filler hard enough

initially that there had subsequently been no significant "droop".

But the exchange obviously implied a potential problem, and I therefore fitted

hard spacers in holes in the fibrax under the hard points, as they suggested,

just in case.

I may be biassed, of course, but it seems to me that after an average 2-3 years

flying amongst the (8) Lancairs here in Lelystad, Holland, that there is a

difference between the amount of spinner/prop droop amongst those who did and

those who didn't.