Submitted by Anonymous on Wed, 12/02/1998 - 01:39 Forums: LML Archive From: Marvin Kaye <marvkaye [at] olsusa.com> Subject: No hard points?? Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 20:39:59 -0500 To: <lancair.list [at] olsusa.com> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<--->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> << Lancair Builders' Mail List >> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<--->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> I couldn't help but notice that the manual recommends that your cut & fit the fiberfrax to the firewall, attach all the layers with silicone, and then glue the stainless sheet over the top of them the same way. I'm curious about how much that fiberfrax compresses when you torque down the engine mount attachment bolts... seems to me that the insulation would compress considerably and allow the stainless sheet to dent inward under all that bolt pressure. The little feet on the mount are only 2" in diameter, and those [7/16"] bolts will be torqued to about 40ftlbs, seems like more than enough to squash that insulation big time. With that said, wouldn't it make sense to build in some 2" square phenolic hard points at each engine mount bolt location the same thickness as the fiberfrax to keep that from happening, or am I worrying about a non-event again? <Marv> No hard points?? Submitted by Anonymous on Wed, 12/02/1998 - 15:58 From: Pat Weston <PatW [at] diamondmm.com> Subject: No hard points?? Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 07:58:29 -0800 To: 'lancair.list [at] olsusa.com' <lancair.list [at] olsusa.com> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<--->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> << Lancair Builders' Mail List >> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<--->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> Hi Marv, Thanks to the builder's list I was able to kill time usefully in when in England two weekends ago. I visited Michael Fopp and drooled all over his project. I was able to pick up a whole bunch of useful hints. One of which addresses your concern about the lack of hardpoints to prevent the fiberfrax from compressing. He cut the holes for the engine mount bolts oversize in the fiberfrax and placed a washer between the SS and the prepreg/phenolic mount. He also recommended to drill out the washer to save weight. Pat Pat Weston VP of Engineering Diamond Multimedia Systems Communication Division 360 604 1538 No hard points?? Submitted by Anonymous on Wed, 12/02/1998 - 21:59 From: by way of Marvin Kaye <marvkaye [at] olsusa.com> <CHRISTOPHER_ZAVATSON [at] udlp.com> Subject: No hard points?? Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 16:59:05 -0500 To: <lancair.list [at] olsusa.com> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<--->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> << Lancair Builders' Mail List >> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<--->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> Marv, You will "squash that insulation big time" using the approach in the manual. I didn't like the idea and I wanted a perfectly flat SS firewall when finished. The way I accomplished this was to make spacers which were inserted in the Fiberfrax every place a bolt passed through. For the six engine mount bolts I stacked up AN970 washers to equal the thickness of the Fiberfrax and riveted them together. For all other bolts mounting hardware to the firewall, I machined stand-offs from aluminum rod. The three layers of Fiberfrax were glued together and cut to size. Then I transferred the mounting hole patterns and used aluminum tubing to stamp out holes in the Fiberfrax to accept all of the stand-offs. You have to know where all of your mounting bolts are going to be located, so I waited to very near the end to install my SS and Fiberfrax. In the mean time I had all of my firewall forward items installed on spacers to position them as if the Fiberfrax were installed. I didn't glue in the Fiberfrax or the SS. They are merely clamped in place by every bolt passing through them and could be removed and modified, if needed. In general, it is poor practice to have soft, compliant materials being compressed by critical fasteners. In the firewall case, we also have a sheet of plywood being compressed. So, no matter what you do with the Fiberfrax, you do not have an ideal joint. Torque on the engine mount bolts should be checked regularly because these compliant materials can creep and cause loss of clamp load. You will want to stack at least 2 AN970 washers under the nut otherwise the nut will want to pull through when torqued. AN washers are not particularly strong and a single AN970 washer cannot sufficiently distribute the load when compressing a plywood core. Chris Zavatson N91CZ ----- Marv, You can post the above. I didn't know how what would happen to the attachment. Chris Attachment Converted: "d:\eudora\attach\chris.bmp" [Thanks for the detailed explanation and the photos... looks great. I'll upload the pics to the LML homepage Attachments area later tonight. <M>] No hard points?? Submitted by Anonymous on Thu, 12/03/1998 - 07:58 From: colmar <jones [at] colmar.demon.nl> Subject: Re:No hard points?? Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 09:58:12 +0200 To: marvkaye [at] olsusa.com <marvkaye [at] olsusa.com>, lancair.list [at] olsusa.com <lancair.list [at] olsusa.com> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<--->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> << Lancair Builders' Mail List >> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<--->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> No, you are not worrying about a non-problem. There was an item in the Lancair Newsletter many, many moons ago which responded, in reply to a similar enquiry, that "they" at Lancair had managed to torque down the fibrax filler hard enough initially that there had subsequently been no significant "droop". But the exchange obviously implied a potential problem, and I therefore fitted hard spacers in holes in the fibrax under the hard points, as they suggested, just in case. I may be biassed, of course, but it seems to me that after an average 2-3 years flying amongst the (8) Lancairs here in Lelystad, Holland, that there is a difference between the amount of spinner/prop droop amongst those who did and those who didn't.
No hard points?? Submitted by Anonymous on Wed, 12/02/1998 - 15:58 From: Pat Weston <PatW [at] diamondmm.com> Subject: No hard points?? Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 07:58:29 -0800 To: 'lancair.list [at] olsusa.com' <lancair.list [at] olsusa.com> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<--->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> << Lancair Builders' Mail List >> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<--->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> Hi Marv, Thanks to the builder's list I was able to kill time usefully in when in England two weekends ago. I visited Michael Fopp and drooled all over his project. I was able to pick up a whole bunch of useful hints. One of which addresses your concern about the lack of hardpoints to prevent the fiberfrax from compressing. He cut the holes for the engine mount bolts oversize in the fiberfrax and placed a washer between the SS and the prepreg/phenolic mount. He also recommended to drill out the washer to save weight. Pat Pat Weston VP of Engineering Diamond Multimedia Systems Communication Division 360 604 1538
No hard points?? Submitted by Anonymous on Wed, 12/02/1998 - 21:59 From: by way of Marvin Kaye <marvkaye [at] olsusa.com> <CHRISTOPHER_ZAVATSON [at] udlp.com> Subject: No hard points?? Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 16:59:05 -0500 To: <lancair.list [at] olsusa.com> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<--->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> << Lancair Builders' Mail List >> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<--->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> Marv, You will "squash that insulation big time" using the approach in the manual. I didn't like the idea and I wanted a perfectly flat SS firewall when finished. The way I accomplished this was to make spacers which were inserted in the Fiberfrax every place a bolt passed through. For the six engine mount bolts I stacked up AN970 washers to equal the thickness of the Fiberfrax and riveted them together. For all other bolts mounting hardware to the firewall, I machined stand-offs from aluminum rod. The three layers of Fiberfrax were glued together and cut to size. Then I transferred the mounting hole patterns and used aluminum tubing to stamp out holes in the Fiberfrax to accept all of the stand-offs. You have to know where all of your mounting bolts are going to be located, so I waited to very near the end to install my SS and Fiberfrax. In the mean time I had all of my firewall forward items installed on spacers to position them as if the Fiberfrax were installed. I didn't glue in the Fiberfrax or the SS. They are merely clamped in place by every bolt passing through them and could be removed and modified, if needed. In general, it is poor practice to have soft, compliant materials being compressed by critical fasteners. In the firewall case, we also have a sheet of plywood being compressed. So, no matter what you do with the Fiberfrax, you do not have an ideal joint. Torque on the engine mount bolts should be checked regularly because these compliant materials can creep and cause loss of clamp load. You will want to stack at least 2 AN970 washers under the nut otherwise the nut will want to pull through when torqued. AN washers are not particularly strong and a single AN970 washer cannot sufficiently distribute the load when compressing a plywood core. Chris Zavatson N91CZ ----- Marv, You can post the above. I didn't know how what would happen to the attachment. Chris Attachment Converted: "d:\eudora\attach\chris.bmp" [Thanks for the detailed explanation and the photos... looks great. I'll upload the pics to the LML homepage Attachments area later tonight. <M>]
No hard points?? Submitted by Anonymous on Thu, 12/03/1998 - 07:58 From: colmar <jones [at] colmar.demon.nl> Subject: Re:No hard points?? Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 09:58:12 +0200 To: marvkaye [at] olsusa.com <marvkaye [at] olsusa.com>, lancair.list [at] olsusa.com <lancair.list [at] olsusa.com> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<--->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> << Lancair Builders' Mail List >> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<--->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> No, you are not worrying about a non-problem. There was an item in the Lancair Newsletter many, many moons ago which responded, in reply to a similar enquiry, that "they" at Lancair had managed to torque down the fibrax filler hard enough initially that there had subsequently been no significant "droop". But the exchange obviously implied a potential problem, and I therefore fitted hard spacers in holes in the fibrax under the hard points, as they suggested, just in case. I may be biassed, of course, but it seems to me that after an average 2-3 years flying amongst the (8) Lancairs here in Lelystad, Holland, that there is a difference between the amount of spinner/prop droop amongst those who did and those who didn't.
No hard points??
Submitted by Anonymous on
No hard points??
Submitted by Anonymous on
No hard points??
Submitted by Anonymous on