My rebuttal to Lancair Talk for training etc

Forums: 

All, 

This is a long read, but is in response to Lancair Talk to explain our position as a type club, the basic rationale for our training and the selection of instructors.  

 

Paul, et. al.,

 

Any comments you desire to make on the LIMA-OSCAR-BRAVO-OSCAR site;  can be done free of charge, and we don’t edit your posts…. It doesn’t cost anything to be part of the forum.  However, we would love all Lancairians to become members.

 

You are venturing into flight instruction and the choosing of flight instructors for our community which I believe is out of your wheel house, (I won’t discount that every Lancairian has a vested interest).  I understand that you believe the availability and choosing of flight instructors is tied into an insurance conspiracy theory whereby the type club and instructors are making fortunes.  Trust me, my wife wishes I made more money for these activities for the cost of being gone. 

 

While I greatly appreciate your referencing clients to me; Joe Ryan and other brokers in the industry have also referred Lancair clients to me and the other instructors—directly and often.  Joe has worked with our board and we have shown him our plans to get our training program in front of insurance underwriters.  No one has to be part of your insurance board, which is also not open to everyone to view?  In reality, it’s no secret that Joe refers me and other instructors to potential Lancair pilots seeking insurance. Personally, I still use Falcon insurance agency since my aircraft policy is tied to my USAA policies for my house, vehicles, etc.  And honestly, the underwriter that Joe would have presented my ‘bio’ to could not beat the policy I already have.  Also offering “free” flight instruction with the sale of an airplane is a cost borne by either the seller, the buyer, or perhaps both. Don’t try to fool me with that gimmick;  I was selling airplanes up until a few months ago and made the same offers.  The cost IS paid by somebody if not both parties; the flight instructor is getting paid. 

 

Since I am also a LIMA-OSCAR-BRAVO-OSCAR Board member, as a Co-Director of Safety and Training, please let me illustrate a few points, if I may:

1.       The syllabi that we use were developed by Jeff Edwards.  It has been reviewed and validated by the FAA.  Jeff is open to having it modified, we just need to go through the process with the FAA. He recognizes that it is not a perfect training syllabus, but it’s what we will use until someone goes through the revision process. 

Now let’s address why we need several flights to qualify a pilot new to Lancairs.  Any sophisticated aircraft will require a certain number of flights.  I remember years ago when I wanted to rent a C210, the insurance company and the flight club I belonged to both insisted on 10 hours of dual even though I was a retired military pilot, having flown everything from F-18, KingAirs, to B707s and others in between.   The KingAir requires a lot of flights in its training syllabus and I am sure your TBM had similar requirements for minimum SIM/flight time.  When you break down any of the Lancair models with retract gear, pressurization systems, air conditioning, and modern avionics, you note they are fairly complex machines for their size.  That includes planes with pressurization, hydraulics, complex turbo-charged engines, multiple electrical systems (none are standard), avionics, and autopilots. These systems require more than a passing reference for any new pilot to the airplane to gain and demonstrate competence. 

 

2.       Our instructors:  If your wife and kids are going for a ride in a Lancair with a new pilot, who would you want to have trained that pilot: the young instructor guy/gal with no significant time in a Lancair, doesn’t own, regularly fly one, (no understanding of the community), but is a qualified Part 61 CFI?  Or would you want to have a professionally trained flight instructor (someone that has gone through a military or a commercial Part 41 flight training program)?  The instructors we seek are professionally trained as an instructor, own and operate their own Lancar, and have been employed as a professional or military pilot.  We feel that combination is the baseline needed in our instructor cadre to keep improving the safety record for the Lancair fleet.  More importantly, Matt Speare and I want instructors with the right approach to training.  What does that mean?  We recognize that we are not training Lancairians to be military or professional pilots, that they may have little flight experience, or that they may be aging and with skills that are starting to erode.  Those examples do not mean the pilot is unsafe, but that we have to ensure they are safe to conduct flights in VFR or IFR with their loved ones and friends.  We also want pilots to not only be competent but confident in use of their piloting skills. If they are confident, they will fly their airplanes competently and have a great time!!!!!  

 

3.       Time and Costs:  First, I have not trained anyone in recent history that said that the six flights in our initial training syllabus was too long/too much.  I have recently trained test pilots, fighter pilots, basic GA pilots, and airline pilots.  This view unanimous among them.  The two-flight recurrent training syllabus is the same.  Secondly, we want people to come prepared for recurrent training by having recent flight experience and practice approaches.  An IPC is not to get someone current; it’s to check proficiency and make sure they will be competent in IMC conditions. We accept that pilots will state they only fly VFR and won’t fly IMC; then end up as a statistic in a weather-related accident. We do have a VFR only syllabus, but if you are instrument-rated we insist on taking you through the IMC portion of the syllabus-in your Lancair.  If you are no longer going to use your IFR rating, consider turning it in? 

None of us are charging any more than a commercial flight school would charge.  In fact we were recently told that our current prices are the same that Pete Z was charging 20 years ago….. And yes, it is common practice to charge for travel if we go to your location. 

4.      Creating more instructors:  This is at the top of our priority list; especially for the two-seat models.  Again, they have to be the right instructors.  We could care less about gender, (and you can stop that WOKE CRAP, no one else in the world cares except for 2% of US citizens).  Being a good aviator or instructors has nothing to do with gender.  In addition to the qualities above, we fly with candidate instructors and review their background to ensure that their experience and capability meet our standards.  The Board reviews and approves each instructor recommendation.

And guess what, if there’s an incident, our instructor’s background and performance will be investigated by the FAA and questioned by the underwriters before any settlement of a claim.  Equally important: we want our Lancair clients to have a great training experience.

 

5.       We believe that the more people that take training, the more likely underwriters will be willing to write policies.  We also believe that as the pool of Lancair owners that have taken and continue to take training grows, there will be more underwriters willing to write policies for Lancair aircraft.   

 

6. Let’s address that insurance conspiracy.  I agree that there are underwriters that gouge clients. This is due, in part, to the fact that they are the only ones writing policies for certain models of Lancair. I will tell you I saw the same thing when I was selling Diamond aircraft.  Some of the bias was age of the pilot and/or qualifications, and time in model.  Some underwriters would not touch the twin Diamonds.  Unbelievable, since Diamond aircraft are arguably some of the safest aircraft in the GA fleet (stall/spin resistant and crash survivability).  Another issue is that some brokers are contractually tied to a few underwriters whereas Wings seems more open to presenting clients to all of them.  From the underwriters perspective in my view, they should require  all their clients to take training; and quality training at that.  Referring to point 3 above, I am always astonished when I get a call that states the underwriter requires only a 2-hour check out in something like a 360 or a IV-P.  Just because they were a test pilot, flew F-14s and are now a 30,000 SWA captain doesn’t mean that they are competent to fly a Lancair as PIC after a couple hours of flight instruction. I say that because they likely haven’t flown very much GA in the last 20-odd years but in their retirement they still want a fast airplane.  I am happy to train them, but I explain that they will need to complete our training program.  But, but, but, I don’t care whose program they use (I am fond of ours but I am aware there are others that are based on a series of flights with specific training objectives). Just complete a program that consists of a series of flights with instrument training, emergency procedures (HYD/Landing gear, electrical, engine, avionics failures, etc.), and is scenario-based (checks ADM).

 

  1. 7.      Lastly, we as instructors have seen a number of non-current pilots, unairworthy aircraft and poorly documented inspection/maintenance.  That is why we ask for our trainees to complete a series a questions and send copies of certain documents before we show up to train.  We have seen: non-current medicals, non-current instrument approaches/holding, non-current conditional inspections, non-current IFR Certifications, missing Special Airworthiness certificates, INOP equipment (air-conditioning is a must in a pressurized aircraft except in winter), non current registrations—and many other issues that directly affect our ability to train. Other issues relate to plane operation but the owner “hasn’t gotten around to fixing it”.  My opinion is that I am in the “people tube” and I don’t want to fly in unairworthy or questionable aircraft.  Although our plane is not painted (still doing airframe mods “may west”) I take great pride in having a really nice plane to fly and put a lot of sweat equity into making sure that it is the best maintained plane on the airfield.  I even earned my A&P and fly my work.  We instructors expect fellow Lancair owners to take pride in taking care of their aircraft if for not themselves the other people they fly.  

 

 

In summary: Passengers don’t have a say, they are along for the ride when things don’t go well.  Let’s not put them at risk because we choose not to take care of our planes, keep ourselves current/proficient, or take quality training.

 

 

I invite comments and questions from anyone and would love to hear some thoughts from others; so far only one…..

 

Respectfully,

 

George

donsak's picture

I am surprised that the LT

I am surprised that the LT administrator allowed your post. He has a history of censorship.  Your thoughts are right on

I gambled knowing that his

I gambled knowing that his email blast goes out at 7pm EST, that I uploaded my post at 18:59 as well as not using the acronym LOBO

I have to echo George's

I have to echo George's comments re: aircraft airworthiness. When I taught in the Bonanza community for over ten years we would have weekend training events with 40-50 aircraft. It was unusual to have an aircraft arrive and not be able to train due to maintenance issues. I would say in my experience in the Lancair fleet it is common, as George stated, to have airworthiness problems.  On the piston side I frequently see over heating engines (420F and above) that owners continually fly with and no attempt by owners to address. We have had a number of instructors report engine failures inflight. One former instructor, Rudy Haug, quit instructing in Lancairs due to these recurring issues. I know one training org has also quit doing Lancair pistons and I am not far behind. We need to get the word out.

Jeff

from the other site and

from the other site and another post from myself:

 

Paul said “ then publish the stats and penetration for your program”

Jeff — good answer - done and done. No program is perfect but the numbers are convincing. 

George — I appreciate the fact that your passionate advocacy is void of name calling and personal attacks. I think that your approach is more likely to strengthen our community than divide us. 

Respectfully to all,

Ken
IV-P 14LK

Ken Kellner

 

Posts: 55

Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:08 am

Location: KATW - Appleton, WI

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Re: Bad information being given by brokers

by Michael Coney » Sun Nov 13, 2022 6:19 pm 

As a new Lancair Owner and a newly minted CFI, I would like to give my 2 cents to the conversation.
I own N315WP which I bought from from the builder who used Lancair Pro build Assist Program
Its a very nice Lancair, I brought it to Reno with the intent to race it but instead it sat in the Sport Class paddock, but got a lot of attention. 
I learned a lot from current owners and builders (thanks Tom)
As far as training - I used a "approved instructor" and Reno racer...it is and continues to be a great experience.
I have owned other high performance aircraft and always had deep relationships with my instructors.
If you buy a Lancair legacy - you need to do the same. (do not cheap out on this)
Its a very high performance, unforgiving aircraft that loves speed and demands attention.
However, after about 10 hours of dual - its a very fun aircraft to fly in the right conditions.
I would say the most challenging situations are staying ahead of AC and landings. It arrives with authority.
I would hope to be able to do check outs in the aircraft and looking at the requirements ie. LOD etc.
I doubt I will be LXXX approve as they like the military high time and pro pilot experience etc.  
btw - my instructor is non-military but I get it. 
My insurance was non issue as I self insure with liability only. Rates for hull were extreme and made no sense.
I am a 2k hours, high performance, complex etc. but made no difference as I had no time in type. (yes, I went through Wings)
If you have any questions ring me up

PS - being a Lancair instructor is not a full time job. They all will have a "day" job. So you need to factor that into your training schedule. I am located in Prineville, Oregon and use Flight Metrics (next to RDD in Redmond) as my maintenance provider....they are great!!!
Never ever use a CFI with no Legacy experience!!!

ATTACHMENTS

Legacy owner

Michael Coney

 

Posts: 72

Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:47 pm

Location: Sandy, Utah

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Re: Bad information being given by brokers

by George Wehrung » Mon Nov 14, 2022 8:49 am 

Michael, congratulations on your new to you Legacy and obtaining your CFI!

It’s not that we wouldn’t be interested in you personally as a CFI, but we would rather see a person that has more experience as a flight instructor. I can’t think of another industry where a person with a newly learned skill set or low experience in that profession is teaching the next generation in that same skill set.

The reason we want people with instructor experience that come out of a professional civilian flight school or military flight instructor is that they are used to teaching a standardize syllabus, generally training in high-performance aircraft, and have check rides conducted on them to ascertain their standardization of instruction, their flight skills, and their ability to work with a variety of students, (personalities & abilities). Thus, they are not just accountable to their students but to a higher level of organization that oversees their actions. A part 61 flight instructor may be an awesome instructor but I have no baseline of performance other than the checkrides they received while obtaining their ratings. Whereas in the civil world at a part 141 school or in the military there’s a plethora of checkrides for each position in an aircraft, aircraft type, stage of instruction they are allowed to teach, and to be check airmen. More importantly, there’s a paper trail if I want to review it.

I am not sure what you do/did for a living, but the same reasons apply from above as to why we want pilots with a professional flying background.

If you are/were a pro pilot we can certainly talk after you obtain experience as an instructor in significant aircraft. In the meantime I sincerely hope that you will continue to be a resource to those who may be interested in the Legacy and continue to be an advocate for training in these machines.

ps, not every military or civil person is a good instructor so we don’t automatically take them either…

this is a very thoughtful and

this is a very thoughtful and thorough discussion on training, maintenance, and insurance.  Thank you George! 

Pilots who buy a lancair without getting the training in these UNFORGIVING aircraft are putting themselves and passengers at unacceptable risk. I have been a builder and lancair pilot for more than 15 years and still

know that recurrent training is a must. 

thanks

George, thanks for taking the

George, thanks for taking the time to put together your thoughtful response. The best thing LOBO can do is continue detailing what the syllabus entails, why it matters, and how instructors are chosen. As someone who just finished LOBO training in my ES, I can attest that the syllabus drives specific learning objectives and safety is the focus. It was great flying with you and I highly recommend the training!