Observations on Limited Life Items

Submitted by Anonymous on

Forums: 

From: John Cooper <snopercod [at] comporium.net>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Observations on Limited Life Items
Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 08:15:16 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>

I know that Bob Pastusek keeps a file on "Limitied Life Items", so I
thought I'd add my observations (for what they're worth). As
everybody knows, I bought my L-235 kit in 1987 and have been working
on it for a long time. Pretty much everything made of rubber has had
to be changed out - tires, tubes, hydraulic hoses, gascolator
soft-goods, mechanical fuel pump (just bought a new one), and the
front crankshaft seal on the engine.  I'm into the brake system and
hydraulics now, and have a few observations.



1. I removed and replaced the Nylaflow tubing to my brakes just on
general principles; I replaced it with the heavy-wall Nylaflow,
which is probably overkill.  The standard-wall tubing I removed
seemed completely serviceable to me, though; It was still flexible
and no cracking was observed. While I was doing that, an older (than
me) Long-EZ builder stopped by and I asked him about the Nylaflow
tubing. He is still flying with the original 30 y.o. Nylaflow tubing
on his aircraft and has never had a problem. Down near his brake
discs, he wrapped the nylon tubing with some kind of heat-insulating
material which sounds like a great idea.  During my aborted taxi
testing, my right brake disc got so hot that it discolored the paint
on the inside of the middle gear door and caused my Nylaflow tubing
to "weep" at the brake fitting. You can see a little meniscus of
hydraulic fluid on top of the brass fitting in the photo below, and
the softened convoluted tubing. The Long-EZ builder used the brass
inserts like I did at all compression fittings. We agreed that
sunlight will embrittle the nylon tubing, which is why I ran mine in
the convoluted tubing. With all the conflicting information on the
Nylaflow, I decided that I just didn't want to worry about it and
installed Russell motorcycle brake hoses for the last 18" down by
the brakes.:



/files/LML/70021-02-01-R/part1.04010202.00060707 [at] comporium.net" sandbox="" width="585" height="877">





2. The O-rings in the original Rosenhan brake pucks in the above
photo seemed completely serviceable after at least 15 years with
hydraulic fluid on them, and 30 years since being manufactured. I
haven't used them a lot, but there was no deterioration that I could
detect and I stretched them like rubber bands and they didn't break
- even the one on the right that got so hot. The Buna-N O-rings have
a listed shelf life of 15 yrs, if anybody cares.



3. I've had two hydraulic cylinders leak over the years. IMHO, the
primary weak point is the shaft seal; On the three that I rebuilt,
the little chevron shaft seals were falling apart. The second
weakest point (IMHO) is the piston seal which can cause a leak from
the high side to the low; I had one of them leak through. All the
end-plug O-rings inside seemed completely serviceable after all this
time. I'm just guessing here, but I would give the shaft seals a
life of 10 years, the piston seal 15 years, and the end-plug seals
20 years.



Hope this helps...


Image


Transformed_Lancair laser wheel alignment 009.JPG

Observations on Limited Life Items

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: Kevin Stallard <kevin [at] arilabs.net>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Observations on Limited Life Items
Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 08:53:15 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

Yeah, I couldn't bring myself to use Nyflow anywhere on my braking system.    With differential braking, I really can't afford to loose one side.    I also use something a bit more robust than Nyflow (regular hydraulic hoses).   


Somethings just have to work when you need them :)

Kevin

On May 20, 2014, at 6:15 AM, John Cooper <snopercod [at] comporium.net

> wrote:



With all the conflicting information on the Nylaflow, I decided that I just didn't want to worry about it and installed Russell motorcycle brake hoses for the last 18" down by the brakes.:

Observations on Limited Life Items

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: Chris Zavatson <chris_zavatson [at] yahoo.com>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Observations on Limited Life Items
Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 08:54:36 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message
John,
That could have been ugly.  A friend of mine with a Glasair had a rejected takeoff on a short runway.  As he turned off the runway, his plastic brake line melted and the 5606 hit is brake disk.  He managed to put out the fire before he lost his entire plane. I used
good old Aeroquip 303 from the wheel well down to the brakes.

Regarding the life expectancy of rubber....The last time Parker was in showing off their latest in hydraulic hoses and fittings, I quizzed them a bit on life expectancy.  They would only say that when submerged in oil, rubber would last a very, very long time.  Being exposed to air is the killer.

Chris Zavatson
N91CZ
360std
www.N91CZ.net
On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 5:15 AM, John Cooper <snopercod [at] comporium.net> wrote:




I know that Bob Pastusek keeps a file on "Limitied Life Items", so I
thought I'd add my observations (for what they're worth). As
everybody knows, I bought my L-235 kit in 1987 and have been working
on it for a long time. Pretty much everything made of rubber has had
to be changed out - tires, tubes, hydraulic hoses, gascolator
soft-goods, mechanical fuel pump (just bought a new one), and the
front crankshaft seal on the engine.  I'm into the brake system and
hydraulics now, and have a few observations.



1. I removed and replaced the Nylaflow tubing to my brakes just on
general principles; I replaced it with the heavy-wall Nylaflow,
which is probably overkill.  The standard-wall tubing I removed
seemed completely serviceable to me, though; It was still flexible
and no cracking was observed. While I was doing that, an older (than
me) Long-EZ builder stopped by and I asked him about the Nylaflow
tubing. He is still flying with the original 30 y.o. Nylaflow tubing
on his aircraft and has never had a problem. Down near his brake
discs, he wrapped the nylon tubing with some kind of heat-insulating
material which sounds like a great idea.  During my aborted taxi
testing, my right brake disc got so hot that it discolored the paint
on the inside of the middle gear door and caused my Nylaflow tubing
to "weep" at the brake fitting. You can see a little meniscus of
hydraulic fluid on top of the brass fitting in the photo below, and
the softened convoluted tubing. The Long-EZ builder used the brass
inserts like I did at all compression fittings. We agreed that
sunlight will embrittle the nylon tubing, which is why I ran mine in
the convoluted tubing. With all the conflicting information on the
Nylaflow, I decided that I just didn't want to worry about it and
installed Russell motorcycle brake hoses for the last 18" down by
the brakes.:



/files/LML/70025-02-01-R/1.3186886301 [at] web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com" sandbox="">





2. The O-rings in the original Rosenhan brake pucks in the above
photo seemed completely serviceable after at least 15 years with
hydraulic fluid on them, and 30 years since being manufactured. I
haven't used them a lot, but there was no deterioration that I could
detect and I stretched them like rubber bands and they didn't break
- even the one on the right that got so hot. The Buna-N O-rings have
a listed shelf life of 15 yrs, if anybody cares.



3. I've had two hydraulic cylinders leak over the years. IMHO, the
primary weak point is the shaft seal; On the three that I rebuilt,
the little chevron shaft seals were falling apart. The second
weakest point (IMHO) is the piston seal which can cause a leak from
the high side to the low; I had one of them leak through. All the
end-plug O-rings inside seemed completely serviceable after all this
time. I'm just guessing here, but I would give the shaft seals a
life of 10 years, the piston seal 15 years, and the end-plug seals
20 years.



Hope this helps...




Image


Transformed_Lancair laser wheel alignment 009.JPG

Observations on Limited Life Items

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: John Cooper <snopercod [at] comporium.net>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Observations on Limited Life Items
Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 15:43:42 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

Chris--



I'll be using the synthetic MIL-PRF-83282
brake fluid. It has a "Fire Point" of 490º F, as compared to 360º F
(?) with the standard MIL-PRF-5606. The synthetic is approved for
use with BUNA-N.


John,
That could
have been ugly.  A friend of mine with a Glasair had a
rejected takeoff on a short runway.  As he turned off the
runway, his plastic brake line melted and the 5606 hit is
brake disk.


Observations on Limited Life Items

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: Kevin Stallard <kevin [at] arilabs.net>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: RE: [LML] Re: Observations on Limited Life Items
Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 11:43:23 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

I think the big problem is the plastic/rubber hose.  You really don't want it to fail on landing when you are really trying to stop.  I believe a Lancair brake line failed somewhere in Oregon, airplane went off the runway and smashed into a tree, killed everyone.



Using Nyflow for brakes is kinda creepy for me...



Kevin



________________________________________

From: Lancair Mailing List [lml [at] lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of John Cooper [snopercod [at] comporium.net]

Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 1:43 PM

To: Lancair Mailing List

Subject: [LML] Re: Observations on Limited Life Items



Chris--



I'll be using the synthetic MIL-PRF-83282 brake fluid. It has a "Fire Point" of 490º F, as compared to 360º F (?) with the standard MIL-PRF-5606. The synthetic is approved for use with BUNA-N.



John,

That could have been ugly.  A friend of mine with a Glasair had a rejected takeoff on a short runway.  As he turned off the runway, his plastic brake line melted and the 5606 hit is brake disk.

Observations on Limited Life Items

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: <Sky2high [at] aol.com>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Observations on Limited Life Items
Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 12:18:55 -0400 (EDT)
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

Kevin, et al,
 
I did a NTSB search from 1990 to present for Lancair accidents in Oregon -
there were 11 and none involved brake line failure.
 
I flew my 320 from 1996 until 2013 with Nylaflow brake lines
that arrived, along with fittings, with my 1989 kit (over 1200
landings).  However, the lines in the stub wing to the brake were sheathed
with Tygon tubing to protect against nicks and abrasion and Adele clamps were
used to firmly support the lines about 6-8 inches from the brake
housing by screwing the clamps to the rear of the wheel casting. 
 
For all I know, the buyer is still using those lines. 
 
It is possible that unsupported lines flop around in the wind when the
gear is out and the line is weakened at the brake-to-line fitting
 
Scott Krueger  
 
In a message dated 5/22/2014 10:43:41 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
kevin [at] arilabs.net writes:

I think
the big problem is the plastic/rubber hose.  You really don't want it to
fail on landing when you are really trying to stop.  I believe a Lancair
brake line failed somewhere in Oregon, airplane went off the runway and
smashed into a tree, killed everyone.

Using Nyflow for brakes is kinda
creepy for
me...

Kevin

________________________________________
From:
Lancair Mailing List [lml [at] lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of John Cooper
[snopercod [at] comporium.net]
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 1:43 PM
To:
Lancair Mailing List
Subject: [LML] Re: Observations on Limited Life
Items

Chris--

I'll be using the synthetic MIL-PRF-83282 brake
fluid. It has a "Fire Point" of 490º F, as compared to 360º F (?) with the
standard MIL-PRF-5606. The synthetic is approved for use with
BUNA-N.

John,
That could have been ugly.  A friend of mine with
a Glasair had a rejected takeoff on a short runway.  As he turned off the
runway, his plastic brake line melted and the 5606 hit is brake
disk.


--
For archives and unsub
http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html

Observations on Limited Life Items

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: Chris Zavatson <chris_zavatson [at] yahoo.com>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Observations on Limited Life Items
Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 15:10:14 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message
Wasn't it Unleashed (before you, Tom) that almost ran into the fuel island several years ago when a brake line failed? 

I just weighed an old brake disc.
Based on that and a Cp of 500 J/(kg-K) and mid-weight, 80 deg day
Max braking from speed x will raise the disc temperature to y degrees
25 kts  220 degF
35 kts  350 degF
45 kts  530 degF
55 kts  750 degF

Keep those brake lines protected.

Chris Zavatson
N91CZ
360std

Observations on Limited Life Items

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: Silvio Novelli <ppxsn [at] novellisouza.com.br>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Observations on Limited Life Items
Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 15:10:31 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

Hi there,


I'm using 1/8" teflon tubes covered with stainless. Strong, chemical proof and flexible, just one line from pedals to calipers. No leaks and no complains up to now, four and a half of use.




      Silvio Novelli
 Lancair 320 PP-XSN
+55 (14) 9.9614-3129
On 22  May 2014,w 21, at 1:18 PM, Sky2high [at] aol.com

wrote:


Kevin, et al,
 
I did a NTSB search from 1990 to present for Lancair accidents in Oregon -
there were 11 and none involved brake line failure.
 
I flew my 320 from 1996 until 2013 with Nylaflow brake lines
that arrived, along with fittings, with my 1989 kit (over 1200
landings).  However, the lines in the stub wing to the brake were sheathed
with Tygon tubing to protect against nicks and abrasion and Adele clamps were
used to firmly support the lines about 6-8 inches from the brake
housing by screwing the clamps to the rear of the wheel casting. 
 
For all I know, the buyer is still using those lines. 
 
It is possible that unsupported lines flop around in the wind when the
gear is out and the line is weakened at the brake-to-line fitting
 
Scott Krueger  
 
In a message dated 5/22/2014 10:43:41 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
kevin [at] arilabs.net

writes:

I think
the big problem is the plastic/rubber hose.  You really don't want it to
fail on landing when you are really trying to stop.  I believe a Lancair
brake line failed somewhere in Oregon, airplane went off the runway and
smashed into a tree, killed everyone.

Using Nyflow for brakes is kinda
creepy for
me...

Kevin

________________________________________
From:
Lancair Mailing List [lml [at] lancaironline.net

] On Behalf Of John Cooper
[snopercod [at] comporium.net

]
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 1:43 PM
To:
Lancair Mailing List
Subject: [LML] Re: Observations on Limited Life
Items

Chris--

I'll be using the synthetic MIL-PRF-83282 brake
fluid. It has a "Fire Point" of 490º F, as compared to 360º F (?) with the
standard MIL-PRF-5606. The synthetic is approved for use with
BUNA-N.

John,
That could have been ugly.  A friend of mine with
a Glasair had a rejected takeoff on a short runway.  As he turned off the
runway, his plastic brake line melted and the 5606 hit is brake
disk.


--
For archives and unsub
http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html

Observations on Limited Life Items

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: <vtailjeff [at] aol.com>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Observations on Limited Life Items
Date: Fri, 23 May 2014 07:27:42 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

nope ...wrong accident 
I believe a Lancair brake 
line failed somewhere in Oregon, airplane went off the runway and smashed into a 
tree, killed everyone.
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----

From: Kevin Stallard <kevin [at] arilabs.net>

To: Lancair Mailing List <lml [at] lancaironline.net>

Sent: Thu, May 22, 2014 10:43 am

Subject: [LML] Re: Observations on Limited Life Items


I think the big problem is the plastic/rubber hose.  You really don't want it to 
fail on landing when you are really trying to stop.  I believe a Lancair brake 
line failed somewhere in Oregon, airplane went off the runway and smashed into a 
tree, killed everyone.

Using Nyflow for brakes is kinda creepy for me...

Kevin

________________________________________
From: Lancair Mailing List [lml [at] lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of John Cooper 
[snopercod [at] comporium.net]
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 1:43 PM
To: Lancair Mailing List
Subject: [LML] Re: Observations on Limited Life Items

Chris--

I'll be using the synthetic MIL-PRF-83282 brake fluid. It has a "Fire Point" of 
490º F, as compared to 360º F (?) with the standard MIL-PRF-5606. The synthetic 
is approved for use with BUNA-N.

John,
That could have been ugly.  A friend of mine with a Glasair had a rejected 
takeoff on a short runway.  As he turned off the runway, his plastic brake line 
melted and the 5606 hit is brake disk.


--
For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html


Observations on Limited Life Items

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: <dudewanarace [at] yahoo.com>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: RE: Observations on Limited Life Items
Date: Fri, 23 May 2014 07:28:21 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message
Chris,
Correct.  When Scotty owned it, he mentioned the story.  I guess he literally had to jump out and Flintstone it to a stop.

Not long after I bought the airplane, during one of my dual training flights, I had a brake lining come off.  My only guess is that it was squeezed too tight when rivited to the base.  So the lining drops out and I loose right brake, pumped like my life depended on it and that just pushed the piston out of the caliper because there was no pad to fill the void.  Ended up doing an ever so gentle left turn off the runway right between 2 taxi lights, into the grass.

The Matco brakes are small, and cheap to
repair, but man.. It is a fair amount of work to fix a pinched tube that is only inevitable. (I have the standard gear) Someday I'll 'brake' down (a little pun there) and buy the Beringer kit and be done with it.

Tom McNerney
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Wasn't it Unleashed (before you, Tom) that almost ran into the fuel island several years ago when a brake line failed? 

I just weighed an old brake disc.
Based on that and a Cp of 500 J/(kg-K) and mid-weight, 80 deg day
Max braking from speed x will raise the disc temperature to y degrees
25 kts  220 degF
35 kts  350 degF
45 kts  530 degF
55 kts  750 degF

Keep those brake lines protected.

Chris Zavatson
N91CZ
360std

Observations on Limited Life Items

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: John Smith <john [at] jjts.net.au>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Observations on Limited Life Items
Date: Fri, 23 May 2014 07:28:57 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message
I also installed teflon w/ stainless braid sheathed hoses throughout from callipers to pedals to reservoir where flexibility is required – otherwise 1/4” aluminium tube where no flexion is required. I used the Nyflo sheath over the hoses from the callipers up into the wheel well to provide additional protection. No issues whatsoever after ~150hrs / 200 landings.



Regards,



John

John N G Smith

Tel / fax:    +61-8-9385-8891

Mobile:      +61-409-372-975

Email:         john [at] jjts.net.au



From: Silvio Novelli <ppxsn [at] novellisouza.com.br

>
Reply-To: Lancair Mailing List <lml [at] lancaironline.net

>
Date: Friday, 23 May 2014 3:10 am
To: Lancair Mailing List <lml [at] lancaironline.net

>
Subject: [LML] Re: Observations on Limited Life Items

Hi there,

I'm using 1/8" teflon tubes covered with stainless. Strong, chemical proof and flexible, just one line from pedals to calipers. No leaks and no complains up to now, four and a half of use.




      Silvio Novelli
 Lancair 320 PP-XSN
+55 (14) 9.9614-3129

On 22  May 2014,w 21, at 1:18 PM, Sky2high [at] aol.com

wrote:



Kevin, et al,
 
I did a NTSB search from 1990 to present for Lancair accidents in Oregon -
there were 11 and none involved brake line failure.
 
I flew my 320 from 1996 until 2013 with Nylaflow brake lines
that arrived, along with fittings, with my 1989 kit (over 1200
landings).  However, the lines in the stub wing to the brake were sheathed
with Tygon tubing to protect against nicks and abrasion and Adele clamps were
used to firmly support the lines about 6-8 inches from the brake
housing by screwing the clamps to the rear of the wheel casting. 
 
For all I know, the buyer is still using those lines. 
 
It is possible that unsupported lines flop around in the wind when the
gear is out and the line is weakened at the brake-to-line fitting
 
Scott Krueger  
 
In a message dated 5/22/2014 10:43:41 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
kevin [at] arilabs.net

writes:

I think
the big problem is the plastic/rubber hose.  You really don't want it to
fail on landing when you are really trying to stop.  I believe a Lancair
brake line failed somewhere in Oregon, airplane went off the runway and
smashed into a tree, killed everyone.

Using Nyflow for brakes is kinda
creepy for
me...

Kevin

________________________________________
From:
Lancair Mailing List [lml [at] lancaironline.net

] On Behalf Of John Cooper
[snopercod [at] comporium.net

]
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 1:43 PM
To:
Lancair Mailing List
Subject: [LML] Re: Observations on Limited Life
Items

Chris--

I'll be using the synthetic MIL-PRF-83282 brake
fluid. It has a "Fire Point" of 490º F, as compared to 360º F (?) with the
standard MIL-PRF-5606. The synthetic is approved for use with
BUNA-N.

John,
That could have been ugly.  A friend of mine with
a Glasair had a rejected takeoff on a short runway.  As he turned off the
runway, his plastic brake line melted and the 5606 hit is brake
disk.


--
For archives and unsub
http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html

Observations on Limited Life Items

Submitted by Anonymous on

From: Kevin Stallard <kevin [at] arilabs.net>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Observations on Limited Life Items
Date: Tue, 27 May 2014 07:49:53 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Message Header


Undecoded Message

Okay, I got suckered by rumor…and didn't check the facts….sorry :)


Kevin



On May 22, 2014, at 10:18 AM, <Sky2high [at] aol.com

> <Sky2high [at] aol.com

> wrote:



Kevin, et al,
 
I did a NTSB search from 1990 to present for Lancair accidents in Oregon -
there were 11 and none involved brake line failure.
 
I flew my 320 from 1996 until 2013 with Nylaflow brake lines
that arrived, along with fittings, with my 1989 kit (over 1200
landings).  However, the lines in the stub wing to the brake were sheathed
with Tygon tubing to protect against nicks and abrasion and Adele clamps were
used to firmly support the lines about 6-8 inches from the brake
housing by screwing the clamps to the rear of the wheel casting. 
 
For all I know, the buyer is still using those lines. 
 
It is possible that unsupported lines flop around in the wind when the
gear is out and the line is weakened at the brake-to-line fitting
 
Scott Krueger  
 
In a message dated 5/22/2014 10:43:41 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
kevin [at] arilabs.net

writes:

I think
the big problem is the plastic/rubber hose.  You really don't want it to
fail on landing when you are really trying to stop.  I believe a Lancair
brake line failed somewhere in Oregon, airplane went off the runway and
smashed into a tree, killed everyone.

Using Nyflow for brakes is kinda
creepy for
me...

Kevin

________________________________________
From:
Lancair Mailing List [lml [at] lancaironline.net

] On Behalf Of John Cooper
[snopercod [at] comporium.net

]
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 1:43 PM
To:
Lancair Mailing List
Subject: [LML] Re: Observations on Limited Life
Items

Chris--

I'll be using the synthetic MIL-PRF-83282 brake
fluid. It has a "Fire Point" of 490º F, as compared to 360º F (?) with the
standard MIL-PRF-5606. The synthetic is approved for use with
BUNA-N.

John,
That could have been ugly.  A friend of mine with
a Glasair had a rejected takeoff on a short runway.  As he turned off the
runway, his plastic brake line melted and the 5606 hit is brake
disk.


--
For archives and unsub
http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html