A STORY ABOUT NOT PURCHASING AN AIRPLANE: N346RS

Forums: 

From: PETER WILLIAMS <peterpawaviation [at] hotmail.com>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: A STORY ABOUT NOT PURCHASING AN AIRPLANE: N346RS
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2014 07:23:21 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
A STORY ABOUT NOT PURCHASING AN AIRPLANE: N346RS





I was attracted to a Lancair when the price was reduced and the
seller would consider a trade as part of the transaction.





Over a number of weeks, I negotiated with Cathy who turned me
over to her “mechanic,” Bob, with whom I who would be
negotiating.





Bob and I ultimately came to a deal, my Cessna 340 plus cash,
where I would deliver the plane to western Missouri, retain the
Garmin 530 from the Cessna and get the Lancair.





I said I would send a deposit, bob said no deposit needed. “ his
word was golden”

I found this slightly odd; but concluded that I was the “buyer”
and even if I had a deposit and a written agreement. I could get held
up when I arrived from the east coast. My thinking was that they are
a seller and they need to sell.





My first step:

I hired a local mechanic recommended by bob.

He pulled the plugs and did a “leak down test” which showed
good compression OK

he then did a boroscope of all six cylinders. Rust in all of them
and one cylinder scored from what appeared to rust flakes.


Not a great surprise, based on the fact of how few hours on the
engine and the length of time since manufacture.





remember that Lycoming puts two limits on TBO. First is the one we
are most familiar with and that is the number of hours of use. The
other is number of years since overhaul. Rust and general
deterioration of gaskets and materials being the reason. (usually 12
years)





Second step

I hired a first class test pilot to go to Missouri and do a
pre-buy and fly the plane.

The report came back that, it was an excellent build and flew as
one would expect a Lancair 4P to fly.

It did have squawks;






when I got there

It turned out that Bob was the original owner and builder. And,
bob, referring to legal minds said that the title of the airplane
would have to be first transferred to himself from cathy and then to
myself.





Checking the plane bob asked how I would start the engine. he said
that that would never work.

Here's what you have to do:

crack the throttle

mixture off

high boost pump

quick count of three with the mixture in,
pull it out immediately


turn key and will start and slowly feed in
the mixture to keep it running


ODD?

After that explanation, I checked the exhaust stacks and found
them to be very black sooty.

WHY?

I do not know.





I thought that what would I do if I had to do a restart in the
air. It was one more matter of concern. Remember, I am about to strap
myself into this thing and fly 1,000 miles.





We proceeded

to unload my Cessna and load the Lancair; as the final step, I
started to remove the Garmin 530 from the panel, bob said “stop,
didn't you get my email three days ago” he said that the wording
suggested that the Garmin was no longer included in the transaction.
I said “that was not our original deal” (the one that was sealed
with “my word is my bond”






it was ultimately suggested that for $5,000, I could “keep”
the Garmin.





I felt like I had been punched in the face. I had spent over
$4,000 at this point between the inspection and fuel to get there,
based on “my word is my bond”And it would be another 180 gallons
of fuel to get home.





So ultimately, I said no to the extra $5,000.


in every deal there is good and bad. I felt that I had reached my
limit and I was concerned that there could be other issues that were
known to bob that he was not telling. I have no proof of such a
thing, but when you no longer trust someone, you have to assume there
may be other reasons.





what worried me in the end was what was truth. Bob was the
builder of the plane and had sold it to Cathy in 2008.





and as the finally, the plane was going back into Bob's name prior
to the sale to me??






it felt a little like Africa;


a NGO or foreign government comes in and builds a first class,
first world facility and then turns it over to the local government,
who just use it. When some portion of the property fail, it stays
failed until less and less works.





Think about it. A wonderful build of the airframe, but....





HYDRAULIC PUMP cycles ever 90 seconds—solution;do nothing

AOA, did not stop talking—solution: disconnect

STEP, kept breaking cables—solution: remove

GAS GAUGE, display failed—solution: ignore

RUST IN CYLINDERS—solution: ignore





this airplane is a project in my opinion, I would expect to spend
the next 100 hours sorting the plane out; troubleshooting the
existing issues and dealing with the new ones that will inevitably
arrive.

Oh yea, do a top overhaul now.





I agree that these people, whoever the real owner is, have had a
hard time. Over $600,000 spent on the build.

They have been trying to sell it since 2008.

Someone does a $20,000 annual, for what? On a airplane with 67
hours.

Someone agrees to sell the plane for them, doesn't; and then
refuses to give the plane back. The law suit costs $100,000 to get
the plane back, with no recovery of legal fees





and of course bob flew a heliocopter into this Lancair when this
Lancair had 18 hours since new.

(I believe that the repair was first class)





ultimately I resented terribly being held up for an additional
$5,000. but more than that, I felt that I could not trust these
people at all and what other unknown awaited me as I flew the plane
away.





In a way I expected some kind of “holdup” because I was
traveling so far; what I did not count on the deal being changed at
the very last moment of the transaction. And that the balance of good
and bad was shifting towards bad.

And the blurry perspective that I had of the seller(s) truth. And
if you have no faith in the seller, do you want to die finding out
what you do not know.





In my opinion, The only realistic way to buy this plane is to take
it to immediately to a repair location. Put $20,000 on the table and
start fixing it. Then spend a bunch of time flying local in VFR
conditions to work out the bugs in the systems and the new surprises
that one would expect in a new build.





One final concern would be spalling of the lifters and the
potential damage to the camshaft. When doing the top overhaul,
checking for internal rust that would necessitate a full teardown of
the engine





peter

A STORY ABOUT NOT PURCHASING AN AIRPLANE: N346RS

From: Danny <danny [at] n107sd.com>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] A STORY ABOUT NOT PURCHASING AN AIRPLANE: N346RS
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2014 08:18:08 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Wow, turn & run away fast!

Sent from my iPhone.
Danny

On Aug 5, 2014, at 7:23 AM, PETER WILLIAMS <peterpawaviation [at] hotmail.com

> wrote:

A STORY ABOUT NOT PURCHASING AN AIRPLANE: N346RS





I was attracted to a Lancair when the price was reduced and the
seller would consider a trade as part of the transaction.





Over a number of weeks, I negotiated with Cathy who turned me
over to her “mechanic,” Bob, with whom I who would be
negotiating.





Bob and I ultimately came to a deal, my Cessna 340 plus cash,
where I would deliver the plane to western Missouri, retain the
Garmin 530 from the Cessna and get the Lancair.





I said I would send a deposit, bob said no deposit needed. “ his
word was golden”

I found this slightly odd; but concluded that I was the “buyer”
and even if I had a deposit and a written agreement. I could get held
up when I arrived from the east coast. My thinking was that they are
a seller and they need to sell.





My first step:

I hired a local mechanic recommended by bob.

He pulled the plugs and did a “leak down test” which showed
good compression OK

he then did a boroscope of all six cylinders. Rust in all of them
and one cylinder scored from what appeared to rust flakes.


Not a great surprise, based on the fact of how few hours on the
engine and the length of time since manufacture.





remember that Lycoming puts two limits on TBO. First is the one we
are most familiar with and that is the number of hours of use. The
other is number of years since overhaul. Rust and general
deterioration of gaskets and materials being the reason. (usually 12
years)





Second step

I hired a first class test pilot to go to Missouri and do a
pre-buy and fly the plane.

The report came back that, it was an excellent build and flew as
one would expect a Lancair 4P to fly.

It did have squawks;






when I got there

It turned out that Bob was the original owner and builder. And,
bob, referring to legal minds said that the title of the airplane
would have to be first transferred to himself from cathy and then to
myself.





Checking the plane bob asked how I would start the engine. he said
that that would never work.

Here's what you have to do:

crack the throttle

mixture off

high boost pump

quick count of three with the mixture in,
pull it out immediately


turn key and will start and slowly feed in
the mixture to keep it running


ODD?

After that explanation, I checked the exhaust stacks and found
them to be very black sooty.

WHY?

I do not know.





I thought that what would I do if I had to do a restart in the
air. It was one more matter of concern. Remember, I am about to strap
myself into this thing and fly 1,000 miles.





We proceeded

to unload my Cessna and load the Lancair; as the final step, I
started to remove the Garmin 530 from the panel, bob said “stop,
didn't you get my email three days ago” he said that the wording
suggested that the Garmin was no longer included in the transaction.
I said “that was not our original deal” (the one that was sealed
with “my word is my bond”






it was ultimately suggested that for $5,000, I could “keep”
the Garmin.





I felt like I had been punched in the face. I had spent over
$4,000 at this point between the inspection and fuel to get there,
based on “my word is my bond”And it would be another 180 gallons
of fuel to get home.





So ultimately, I said no to the extra $5,000.


in every deal there is good and bad. I felt that I had reached my
limit and I was concerned that there could be other issues that were
known to bob that he was not telling. I have no proof of such a
thing, but when you no longer trust someone, you have to assume there
may be other reasons.





what worried me in the end was what was truth. Bob was the
builder of the plane and had sold it to Cathy in 2008.





and as the finally, the plane was going back into Bob's name prior
to the sale to me??






it felt a little like Africa;


a NGO or foreign government comes in and builds a first class,
first world facility and then turns it over to the local government,
who just use it. When some portion of the property fail, it stays
failed until less and less works.





Think about it. A wonderful build of the airframe, but....





HYDRAULIC PUMP cycles ever 90 seconds—solution;do nothing

AOA, did not stop talking—solution: disconnect

STEP, kept breaking cables—solution: remove

GAS GAUGE, display failed—solution: ignore

RUST IN CYLINDERS—solution: ignore





this airplane is a project in my opinion, I would expect to spend
the next 100 hours sorting the plane out; troubleshooting the
existing issues and dealing with the new ones that will inevitably
arrive.

Oh yea, do a top overhaul now.





I agree that these people, whoever the real owner is, have had a
hard time. Over $600,000 spent on the build.

They have been trying to sell it since 2008.

Someone does a $20,000 annual, for what? On a airplane with 67
hours.

Someone agrees to sell the plane for them, doesn't; and then
refuses to give the plane back. The law suit costs $100,000 to get
the plane back, with no recovery of legal fees





and of course bob flew a heliocopter into this Lancair when this
Lancair had 18 hours since new.

(I believe that the repair was first class)





ultimately I resented terribly being held up for an additional
$5,000. but more than that, I felt that I could not trust these
people at all and what other unknown awaited me as I flew the plane
away.





In a way I expected some kind of “holdup” because I was
traveling so far; what I did not count on the deal being changed at
the very last moment of the transaction. And that the balance of good
and bad was shifting towards bad.

And the blurry perspective that I had of the seller(s) truth. And
if you have no faith in the seller, do you want to die finding out
what you do not know.





In my opinion, The only realistic way to buy this plane is to take
it to immediately to a repair location. Put $20,000 on the table and
start fixing it. Then spend a bunch of time flying local in VFR
conditions to work out the bugs in the systems and the new surprises
that one would expect in a new build.





One final concern would be spalling of the lifters and the
potential damage to the camshaft. When doing the top overhaul,
checking for internal rust that would necessitate a full teardown of
the engine





peter

A STORY ABOUT NOT PURCHASING AN AIRPLANE: N346RS

From: <dudewanarace [at] yahoo.com>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: A STORY ABOUT NOT PURCHASING AN AIRPLANE: N346RS
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2014 15:51:37 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>
Peter,
I am based at KLXT, Lee's Summit MO.  Falcon Helicopter was just down the road.  They were pretty much done for when I started flying, so what I have heard is only hearsay.  But, it isn't good..

Then if you Google Falcon Helicopter, Inc. vs  _____  fill in the blank, there are many.  Much of which revolves around helicopter sales that were pretty obviously full of intentional misrepresentation.

I have heard this Lancair existed around here, but have never actually seen it.  I saw the ad on Barnstormers some time ago.

It is sad a potentially good airplane gets grounded because of issues like these.

Tom

A STORY ABOUT NOT PURCHASING AN AIRPLANE: N346RS

From: Jeff Turk <jeff [at] formaspace.com>
Sender: <marv [at] lancaironline.net>
Subject: RE: A STORY ABOUT NOT PURCHASING AN AIRPLANE: N346RS
Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 10:48:05 -0400
To: <lml [at] lancaironline.net>

I too had some discussion with Cathy and about Bob. After I asked just a few direct questions, Cathy ceased communications with me. I have had several unfortunate
dealings with owners and brokers, and now a criminal background check is part of my process. I think if you look into Bob’s background you may be shocked at what you find and pleased that you did not end up with this plane. I was not exactly able to tell what
the relationship between Cathy and Bob was, but I can tell you it made me intensely uncomfortable.

 

If I may be so bold, a few suggestions for future negotiations:

 

1.      
Do a fair amount of googling. Most of the time it doesn’t yield much, but sometimes google will deliver a jaw dropper. I have unfortunately learned
the hard way and agree 100% that there is no price you can come to, and no deal that can be had with a crook. Google has saved me from at least two IV-Ps.

2.      
Please reference my earlier e-mail about the inspection. I would never use anyone local for the inspection. In fact, a little tactic I use when considering
planes, boats, medical or legal second opinions, and so on, is I ask the seller/professional who they would recommend I go to. I listen carefully to their response, which tells me a lot about them. Even if I agree that one of more of their suggestions are
good suggestions, I still strike all their suggestions from the list. It’s nothing personal – I just want total independence.

3.      
I think as you get to know the planes better you will see that had you acquired this plane, you would have been out far more than $20k, and perhaps
would have paid with something more valuable than money.

 

Just my two cents.

 

--Jeff

 

 

From: PETER WILLIAMS [peterpawaviation [at] hotmail.com]">mailto:peterpawaviation [at] hotmail.com]


Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 6:23 AM

Subject: A STORY ABOUT NOT PURCHASING AN AIRPLANE: N346RS

 

A STORY ABOUT NOT PURCHASING AN AIRPLANE: N346RS





I was attracted to a Lancair when the price was reduced and the seller would consider a trade as part of the transaction.





Over a number of weeks, I negotiated with Cathy who turned me over to her “mechanic,” Bob, with whom I who would be negotiating.





Bob and I ultimately came to a deal, my Cessna 340 plus cash, where I would deliver the plane to western Missouri, retain the Garmin 530 from the Cessna and get the Lancair.





I said I would send a deposit, bob said no deposit needed. “ his word was golden”

I found this slightly odd; but concluded that I was the “buyer” and even if I had a deposit and a written agreement. I could get held up when I arrived from the east coast. My thinking was that they are a seller and they need to sell.





My first step:

I hired a local mechanic recommended by bob.

He pulled the plugs and did a “leak down test” which showed good compression OK

he then did a boroscope of all six cylinders. Rust in all of them and one cylinder scored from what appeared to rust flakes.


Not a great surprise, based on the fact of how few hours on the engine and the length of time since manufacture.





remember that Lycoming puts two limits on TBO. First is the one we are most familiar with and that is the number of hours of use. The other is number of years since overhaul. Rust and general deterioration of gaskets and materials being the reason. (usually
12 years)





Second step

I hired a first class test pilot to go to Missouri and do a pre-buy and fly the plane.

The report came back that, it was an excellent build and flew as one would expect a Lancair 4P to fly.

It did have squawks;





when I got there

It turned out that Bob was the original owner and builder. And, bob, referring to legal minds said that the title of the airplane would have to be first transferred to himself from cathy and then to myself.





Checking the plane bob asked how I would start the engine. he said that that would never work.

Here's what you have to do:

crack the throttle

mixture off

high boost pump

quick count of three with the mixture in, pull it out immediately

turn key and will start and slowly feed in the mixture to keep it running

ODD?

After that explanation, I checked the exhaust stacks and found them to be very black sooty.

WHY?

I do not know.





I thought that what would I do if I had to do a restart in the air. It was one more matter of concern. Remember, I am about to strap myself into this thing and fly 1,000 miles.





We proceeded

to unload my Cessna and load the Lancair; as the final step, I started to remove the Garmin 530 from the panel, bob said “stop, didn't you get my email three days ago” he said that the wording suggested that the Garmin was no longer included in the transaction.
I said “that was not our original deal” (the one that was sealed with “my word is my bond”






it was ultimately suggested that for $5,000, I could “keep” the Garmin.





I felt like I had been punched in the face. I had spent over $4,000 at this point between the inspection and fuel to get there, based on “my word is my bond”And it would be another 180 gallons of fuel to get home.





So ultimately, I said no to the extra $5,000.

in every deal there is good and bad. I felt that I had reached my limit and I was concerned that there could be other issues that were known to bob that he was not telling. I have no proof of such a thing, but when you no longer trust someone, you have to assume
there may be other reasons.





what worried me in the end was what was truth. Bob was the builder of the plane and had sold it to Cathy in 2008.





and as the finally, the plane was going back into Bob's name prior to the sale to me??






it felt a little like Africa;

a NGO or foreign government comes in and builds a first class, first world facility and then turns it over to the local government, who just use it. When some portion of the property fail, it stays failed until less and less works.





Think about it. A wonderful build of the airframe, but....





HYDRAULIC PUMP cycles ever 90 seconds—solution;do nothing

AOA, did not stop talking—solution: disconnect

STEP, kept breaking cables—solution: remove

GAS GAUGE, display failed—solution: ignore

RUST IN CYLINDERS—solution: ignore





this airplane is a project in my opinion, I would expect to spend the next 100 hours sorting the plane out; troubleshooting the existing issues and dealing with the new ones that will inevitably arrive.

Oh yea, do a top overhaul now.





I agree that these people, whoever the real owner is, have had a hard time. Over $600,000 spent on the build.

They have been trying to sell it since 2008.

Someone does a $20,000 annual, for what? On a airplane with 67 hours.

Someone agrees to sell the plane for them, doesn't; and then refuses to give the plane back. The law suit costs $100,000 to get the plane back, with no recovery of legal fees





and of course bob flew a heliocopter into this Lancair when this Lancair had 18 hours since new.

(I believe that the repair was first class)





ultimately I resented terribly being held up for an additional $5,000. but more than that, I felt that I could not trust these people at all and what other unknown awaited me as I flew the plane away.





In a way I expected some kind of “holdup” because I was traveling so far; what I did not count on the deal being changed at the very last moment of the transaction. And that the balance of good and bad was shifting towards bad.

And the blurry perspective that I had of the seller(s) truth. And if you have no faith in the seller, do you want to die finding out what you do not know.





In my opinion, The only realistic way to buy this plane is to take it to immediately to a repair location. Put $20,000 on the table and start fixing it. Then spend a bunch of time flying local in VFR conditions to work out the bugs in the systems and the new
surprises that one would expect in a new build.





One final concern would be spalling of the lifters and the potential damage to the camshaft. When doing the top overhaul, checking for internal rust that would necessitate a full teardown of the engine





peter